Flying IFR in/around the Chicago Class B, it's not unusual to get
vectored out over Lake Michigan. I've always been a little nervous
about this but even more so after the recent PA28 downing off
Milwaukee. Flotation gear is no solution for probably 6 months of the
year because of water temperature.

Anybody else found a way to deal with this? I fly out of Gary, and
eastbound the vector is almost always 040, which puts me a fair
distance offshore.

In what direction are you generally heading?


"paul kgyy" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Flying IFR in/around the Chicago Class B, it's not unusual to get
> vectored out over Lake Michigan. I've always been a little nervous
> about this but even more so after the recent PA28 downing off
> Milwaukee. Flotation gear is no solution for probably 6 months of the
> year because of water temperature.
>
> Anybody else found a way to deal with this? I fly out of Gary, and
> eastbound the vector is almost always 040, which puts me a fair
> distance offshore.
>

"paul kgyy" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Flying IFR in/around the Chicago Class B, it's not unusual to get
> vectored out over Lake Michigan. I've always been a little nervous
> about this but even more so after the recent PA28 downing off
> Milwaukee. Flotation gear is no solution for probably 6 months of the
> year because of water temperature.
>
> Anybody else found a way to deal with this? I fly out of Gary, and
> eastbound the vector is almost always 040, which puts me a fair
> distance offshore.
>

I flew out of Gary recently with my wife and kids in the plane. When they
gave me vectors over the water I replied "Unable, I'm in a single engine and
I need to stay within gliding distance of the shore. I can head NNN" (can't
remember the heading). They said fine, and let me fly where I wanted. Maybe
I just got a nice controller :)

If I was on my own I still might request a different heading, but I probably
wouldn't use the "Unable" response.

Michael

Michael 182 wrote:

> I flew out of Gary recently with my wife and kids in the plane. When they
> gave me vectors over the water I replied "Unable, I'm in a single engine
> and I need to stay within gliding distance of the shore.Â*Â*IÂ*canÂ*headÂ*NNN"
> (can't remember the heading). They said fine, and let me fly where I
> wanted. Maybe I just got a nice controllerÂ*Â*Â*:)

Something like that occurred a while back while taking my baby and wife to
Nantucket. I filed a "glide distance" route (and altitude) rather than the
documented preferred route. The CDW tower gave me what I'd filed.

Somewhere over NY or CT, however, ATC gave me a reroute that was the
preferred. I essentially said what you did. The controller hemmed a bit,
and gave me a clearance only to the next intersection on my original plan.

Shortly thereafter, though, I was given back my original clearance.

I've often wondered what went on in the background.

- Andrew

Andrew Gideon > wrote in
gonline.com:
> I've often wondered what went on in the background.

As a guess, some negotiation between the controller you were talking to
and the next one to get you. He may have had to move some traffic, or at
least make sure there was no conflict on the new route.

--
Regards,

Stan

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." B. Franklin

"paul kgyy" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Flying IFR in/around the Chicago Class B, it's not unusual to get
> vectored out over Lake Michigan. I've always been a little nervous
> about this but even more so after the recent PA28 downing off
> Milwaukee. Flotation gear is no solution for probably 6 months of the
> year because of water temperature.
>
> Anybody else found a way to deal with this? I fly out of Gary, and
> eastbound the vector is almost always 040, which puts me a fair
> distance offshore.

I believe you can claim "unable" or some other such response to the vector.

Michael 182 > wrote:

> I flew out of Gary recently with my wife and kids in the plane. When they
> gave me vectors over the water I replied "Unable, I'm in a single engine and
> I need to stay within gliding distance of the shore. I can head NNN" (can't
> remember the heading). They said fine, and let me fly where I wanted. Maybe
> I just got a nice controller :)

A similar situation happened to me a few months ago. I was flying an Angel
Flight from western NY to the top of northern NY (Dunkirk to Massena). I
filed and was given an easterly, then northerly route to avoid flying over
Lake Ontario.

About 15 minutes after departure, the controller gave me direct to my
destination airport (OK, so it's slow in northern NY). I responded the
same way you did: "Unable - Single engine aircraft without flotation
devices cannot overfly a large body of water." The controller immediately
cleared me as I originally filed.

I was then handed off to the next approach facility, who also
uncharacteristically cleared me direct. This time, though, since I was
farther east, I was unsure if the direct routing would take me over water
so I told him to standby. I then looked at my chart, extended my direct
route from my present position and discovered that it, too, would have put
us about 40 miles out over Lake Ontario. I again replied "unable" and was
given the remainder of my original routing.

Gotta stick to your guns...

--
Peter


















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On 28 Apr 2005 13:31:57 -0700, "paul kgyy" >
wrote:

>Flying IFR in/around the Chicago Class B, it's not unusual to get
>vectored out over Lake Michigan. I've always been a little nervous
>about this but even more so after the recent PA28 downing off
>Milwaukee. Flotation gear is no solution for probably 6 months of the
>year because of water temperature.
>
>Anybody else found a way to deal with this? I fly out of Gary, and
>eastbound the vector is almost always 040, which puts me a fair
>distance offshore.

You could try filing with 'no overwater' in the remarks. I'm not sure
if this works, but I have heard of other pilots doing this.

-Nathan

> wrote in message ...
>
>
> paul kgyy wrote:
>
>> Flying IFR in/around the Chicago Class B, it's not unusual to get
>> vectored out over Lake Michigan. I've always been a little nervous
>> about this but even more so after the recent PA28 downing off
>> Milwaukee. Flotation gear is no solution for probably 6 months of the
>> year because of water temperature.
>>
>
> What's the difference with this and having a single lose an engine when
> its 500 overcast and 1 mile, or something like that?

There is some difference, but not enough to make a choice to fly in a single
under those conditions. If I'm crossing western Kansas I still have a pretty
good chance of a decent outcome. I wouldn't cross the Rockies in a single in
IMC or at night.

Michael

> wrote in message ...
>
> What's the difference with this and having a single lose an engine when
> its 500 overcast and 1 mile, or something like that?
>

The difference is if there's land under that 500' overcast you have a chance
of survival.

I have put "No Overwater Routing" in the remarks section when departing
Chicago to Detroit and it worked. Chicago vectored me around the edge of
the lake and even asked how far overwater I wished to go.

Howard Neff


"paul kgyy" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Flying IFR in/around the Chicago Class B, it's not unusual to get
> vectored out over Lake Michigan. I've always been a little nervous
> about this but even more so after the recent PA28 downing off
> Milwaukee. Flotation gear is no solution for probably 6 months of the
> year because of water temperature.
>
> Anybody else found a way to deal with this? I fly out of Gary, and
> eastbound the vector is almost always 040, which puts me a fair
> distance offshore.
>

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:

> > wrote in message ...
> >
> > What's the difference with this and having a single lose an engine when
> > its 500 overcast and 1 mile, or something like that?
> >
>
> The difference is if there's land under that 500' overcast you have a chance
> of survival.

With the proper water survival gear there is a chance of surving a ditching in
Lake Michigan, too. Perhaps the odds or even better than trying to avoid
houses, power lines, etc, etc.

Again, it's all about being prepared.

Light aircraft ferry pilots having to ditch over the North Atlantic have done
quite well in surviving. Then again, they had the right gear and really were
trained and qualified to survive a ocean ditching.

> wrote in message ...
>
> With the proper water survival gear there is a chance of surving a
> ditching in
> Lake Michigan, too. Perhaps the odds or even better than trying to avoid
> houses, power lines, etc, etc.
>
> Again, it's all about being prepared.
>

Yeah, but people don't tend to prepare for a ditching in Lake Michigan.

On Sat, 30 Apr 2005 07:13:02 -0700, wrote:

>Again, it's all about being prepared.
>
>Light aircraft ferry pilots having to ditch over the North Atlantic have done
>quite well in surviving. Then again, they had the right gear and really were
>trained and qualified to survive a ocean ditching.

Most of these pilots are WEARING their survival suit while flying the
plane across the Atlantic.

Nathan Young wrote:

> On Sat, 30 Apr 2005 07:13:02 -0700, wrote:
>
> >Again, it's all about being prepared.
> >
> >Light aircraft ferry pilots having to ditch over the North Atlantic have done
> >quite well in surviving. Then again, they had the right gear and really were
> >trained and qualified to survive a ocean ditching.
>
> Most of these pilots are WEARING their survival suit while flying the
> plane across the Atlantic.

No doubt about it. There is a message that sort of leaps out, isn't there?

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:

> > wrote in message ...
> >
> > With the proper water survival gear there is a chance of surving a
> > ditching in
> > Lake Michigan, too. Perhaps the odds or even better than trying to avoid
> > houses, power lines, etc, etc.
> >
> > Again, it's all about being prepared.
> >
>
> Yeah, but people don't tend to prepare for a ditching in Lake Michigan.

No doubt about it. Nor are folks who fly single-engine IFR prepared to save it
as they become contact at 500 feet, agl, over suburban Green Bay, Wisconsin, or
the like.

> wrote in message ...
>
> No doubt about it. Nor are folks who fly single-engine IFR prepared to
> save it
> as they become contact at 500 feet, agl, over suburban Green Bay,
> Wisconsin, or
> the like.
>

What additional preflight preparations could they make for that situation?

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:

> > wrote in message ...
> >
> > No doubt about it. Nor are folks who fly single-engine IFR prepared to
> > save it
> > as they become contact at 500 feet, agl, over suburban Green Bay,
> > Wisconsin, or
> > the like.
> >
>
> What additional preflight preparations could they make for that situation?

Two engines.

Nathan Young wrote:

>
> Most of these pilots are WEARING their survival suit while flying the
> plane across the Atlantic.

A survival suit is a body bag witha hole for your face :-)

In article >,
Ron Natalie > wrote:

> Nathan Young wrote:
>
> >
> > Most of these pilots are WEARING their survival suit while flying the
> > plane across the Atlantic.
>
> A survival suit is a body bag witha hole for your face :-)

And no other holes, hence the nickname, "poopy-suit"

I tend to get this vector initially heading anywhere from Michigan to
Ohio. Had it happen on a trip from Gary to Columbus, OH. I understand
part of the ATC problem, in that Gary lies right under a couple of
STARs for both Midway and OHare, so they don't want to send me anywhere
between straight east (Goshen) and straight south (Boiler). But I'll
try the "no overwater" flight plan approach and see how it works. I
did try it once with no results, but maybe it just didn't get
transmitted.

In article >, says...
>

>>
>> What additional preflight preparations could they make for that situation?
>
>Two engines.
>


That's the "correct" answer, though statistically this worsens their odds for
survival.

G Faris

> wrote in message ...
>
> Two engines.
>

How does the presence of the second engine enable folks to save it as they
become contact at 500 feet, agl, over suburban Green Bay, Wisconsin, or the
like?